tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN September 3, 2014 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
welcome back, everyone. what is in a name? it could be the difference between getting a job and getting passed over. man named jose zamora says he sent out between 50 and 100 resumes a day, and he had no luck. so he decided to get a little bit creative. he dropped one letter from his name, and jose became joe. the job offers began rolling in. we'll have a lot more on the story in the next hour on cnn, so make sure you stay with us. welcome back, everyone. it is 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. this is "cnn tonight." i'm don lemon. >> and i'm alisyn camerota. great to be with you tonight. imagine being behind bars for 30 years and being on death row, all for a crime you did not commit. now imagine giving up your youth, losing the chance to have a normal life and family? >> and then imagine suddenly
being set free. this happened to not one, but two men this week. they are brothers. we'll have their story. >> incredible. and america's team signs michael sam, the first openly gay nfl player. this whole story just about football and skill? we'll get into all that. >> we certainly will. but we're going again tonight with a story of justice delayed. the north carolina brothers finally free after three decades in prison. cnn's george howell has our story. >> reporter: stepping out into the world a free man after 30 years on death row for a crime he did not commit. henry mccollum did not show anger, did not seem bitter. his first message to the cameras. >> ain't no anger in my heart. i forgive people and stuff. but i don't like what they have done to me and my brother, because they took 30 years away for no reason. but i don't hate them. >> hi, son! >> reporter: an emotional reunion with family is just the beginning for this man who has so much to catch up on.
even the simple things like how to put on a seat belt. a photo journalist on scene shows him how. >> you got to pull it over like that. and then you pull it down like that and clip it into the belt buckle there. >> reporter: 50-year-old mccollum and his half-brother, 46-year-old leon brown spent most of their lives in prison. but yesterday a judge in north carolina handed them both their freedom. mccollum and brown both teenagers in 1983 when arrested for the rape and killing of 11-year-old sabrina bowie. but 30 years later, the north carolina innocence inquiry commission discovers inconsistencies in their confessions, raising the possibility that the two may have been coerced by investigators. they also determined dna evidence from the crime could not be traced to either of the men. instead, the commission concludes the evidence on cans and cigarette butts matches the dna of a convicted rapist and
murderer who lived less than 100 yards from where the victim's body was found. >> our prayers are out for the sabrina bowie family. we're praying for them. and we're so glad that justice was served and the truth finally came forth. we thank god for that. and we're going to go on with our lives. >> reporter: released from his life sentence, this photo capture leon brown's first steps of prison just outside the prison walls. their father never gave up hope. >> we waited years and years. we have kept the faith, waiting until god make the move. he made the move and there it is. >> reporter: two men, three decades in prison, finally free. and now not looking back. george howell, cnn, atlanta. >> let's fwli ken rose, the attorney for mccollum and the attorney for leon brown. great to see you both. what a staggering story. how can these two men have been falsely accused in prison, one of them be on death row for 30
years? ken, let me start with you. what took so long to exonerate them? >> police had obtained confessions from both men. and the confessions were virtually the entire evidence against them. but that's all it took. and despite those confessions being contradictory, being contradictory to the facts of the scene of the crime, there was still not enough to get them off of death row. and get mr. mccollum's conviction reversed until the innocence 8 inquiry commission found evidence that another man committed this crime. >> ms. kirby, let's go over how flawed the case was from the get-go. we just heard bits and pieces of it. no physical evidence ever against these two men. >> that's correct. >> both mentally disabled. they were both interrogated at the police station for five hours with no lawyers present. they wanted to go home.
they were just 15 and 19 years old. so they signed or agreed or said these confessions, which they quickly recanted afterwards and said that they had been coerced. and apparently it was on the word of just one local teenager who didn't like them that cast suspicion on these brothers. why were they given the death penalty, given that scant evidence? >> well, of course this was in 1983 in a rural area of north carolina. the police were under great deal of pressure to make an arrest, because it was such a brutal crime in such a small community. and even though as ken said there was absolutely no physical evidence linking them to the crime, the district attorney who prosecuted them and did vociferously convinced the jury that this was enough, as ken said. a lot of details that they each gave. but a lot of inconsistencies as well. and the crime scene investigator
was in the interviews. obviously had a lot of details. leon said i thought that they would let me go home if i told them what they wanted to hear. and they were doing the talking, and leon i think was just agreeing with them. >> we want the play a part of an interview given by henry mccollum, one of the men who was on death row just a few weeks ago. let's listen. >> i had never they threaten and all that stuff. so what i did, i gave them a false name and made up a story. this is where the crime happened when the crime didn't really happen that way. you know all that, right? because i was trying to go home. i gave them a false confession. >> mr. rose, it's so heartbreaking to think about all the time that these men lost. so investigators finally did a dna test on the cigarette butt.
it was found near the scene of the crime. and the heinous crime that you had mentioned was the rape and murder of an 11-year-old girl. and anyway, the dna was traced to a man who lived less than a block away from the crime scene who was convicted of other sexual assaults. why did it take so long to figure out who the real culprit was when dna testing has been around for a while? >> some police should have at least suspected roscoe from the very beginning. and he is the person who has been matched with the dna. he lived within 50 feet of where the body was found. he lived even closer to where a blouse of the victim was found. and his house was the closest house to the crime scene. he had a prior record of sexual assaults. he had a prior record.
he was suspected of a murder that was very similar to this murder. and three and a half weeks after this particular murder, he committed and was convicted for another murder in the small town of red springs, north carolina. so police should have known that he -- that he was at least a suspect. we found out later that three days before mr. mccollum, mr. brown's trials, police in fact did suspect roscoe artis of this crime. and for that reason, they submitted a comparison request to the state crime lab, mr. artis' fingerprints with known fingerprints found at the scene. but they never completed the comparison. >> incredible. >> the crime scene investigator testified but didn't mention the fact that mr. artis was a suspect.
>> ms. kirby, i want to play one more sound bite from mr. mccollum, who talked about the life that he imagined he would have had. >> a long time ago, i wanted -- i wanted to find me a good wife. i wanted to raise a family. i wanted to have my own business and everything. i never -- i never got the chance to fulfill those dreams, never got the chance because the people that took 30 years away from me. they destroyed my life. now i believe, i believe that god is going to bless me to get back out there. >> it's so heartbreaking to hear him talk about the missed opportunities and everything that he lost out on. how are these men doing today? and what does the future hold for them? >> well, as far as leon, he i think is still stunned.
and i don't know that it's actually sunk in to him that he is free, and that he is not in prison anymore. when we talked yesterday, in the courtroom before the judge actually announced his ruling, i looked at him and i said i think this is really going to happen. and he said yes, it's going to happen at last. i think that was the first time he let himself believe that. we talked about what he might do and what he thought he wanted to do. he said i want to learn a trade. i want to get a job. i want to do all the things i haven't been able to do. and he said he wanted to go to mcdonald's and get a big mac and a milk shake was the first thing that he wanted to do. he is just -- he is so institutionalized. and is just about helpless. but i know he does want, to as i say, get a job, make himself useful, not just sit around and ruminate and over what has happened to him. >> of course. well, we pray that they are able to find some measure of happiness with the life that they have left.
ken rose, ann kirby, thank you so much for coming in and sharing the story with us. >> crazy. >> thank you. >> thank you. i'm sure it happens all the time, right. but the question is why would someone sign a false confession, right? >> a false confession, right. it is hard to understand why anybody would sign something like, that especially when it could lead to decades behind bars or death row. our next guest can shed light on that. javier amador is a psychologist. why do people sign confessions? >> one is they're isolated. you heard him i was under a lot of pressure. imagine being picked up. you know you didn't commit a crime, and i tell you just raped and murdered a little girl. so you're frightened amount. then promise are made. a lot of people don't understand this, but law enforcement is allowed to lie. and my understanding is there were several lies said to these two young men, these teenagers. you can go home if you sign this. how many of us have scrolled through on the internet, accept terms and conditions and click
yes, and do we read a word? it may not be the best analogy, but it's not a bad analogy from my experience working on over 50 death penalty cases involving mentally ill people and those with disabilities like these two men. teenagers, mental disability. they actually -- i believe it. believed they could have gome if they signed this paper. >> is there a certain category, as you said, teenagers, people who may have some mental issues? >> absolutely circumstances there a certain class, race, or does it go -- does it -- >> it's a good question. there is two variables. the variable you're describing, the characteristic of the person who is being interrogated. do they have vulnerabilities, mental disability, they're in their adolescence, they're younger. that's one set of vulnerabilities. drug addiction as well by the way. because you're impaired. the other is the way the interrogation is conducted. it can go on 10, 15, 18. it is go on overnight.
and the isolation continues. and they don't say those magic words, i want to speak to an attorney, which should end the interrogation. when they don't say those words, they get befriended. get this off your chest. just tell us this and you can go home. and as hard as it is for us to believe, unless you're in their shoes and a have that kind of n inincapacity, it's hard to believe they would sign this. >> the guy right there, closest to the crime scene. >> they should have connected the dots long before this. dr. javier amador, thank you so much for your expertise. great to talk to you. when we come back, will president putin back down on ukraine? can they agree on a plan and put into it action? plus, born in the usa, the american man who tried to join isis, and how he was caught. also, what is in a name? the man who dropped one letter from his name and turned his
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welcome back. in just a few hours, president barack obama will sit down with other leaders in wales for the nato summit. at the top of their agenda, of course, ukraine and what to do about vladimir putin. so joining us now cnn chief national security correspondent, and that's jim sciutto. jim, you spoke with secretary hagel today about how the united states can contain vladimir putin's aggression. what did he tell you? >> well, let me tell you one thing he said. the u.s. is not considering, and that is military action. the obama administration considering that. further action against isis in syria. but when it comes to vladimir putin, russian forces in ukraine, that's not on the table. so it pressed secretary tagle to ask him what evidence the administration has that its alternate strategy of raising the economic costs against russia, first-degree murder economic sanctions, what evidence the administration has that that strategy is working. and here is what the secretary had to say. >> but if the goal is to de-escalate, they have failed. because russia has kept on escalating military. >> do you want us not to do anything, as putin continues to escalate? >> no question. i'm just asking if the policy has been successful so far. and the evidence would seem to show that it hasn't. >> well, our president has been very clear. this is not a short-term deal. if president putin continues to
escalate, as he has been, he continues to drive his country into a ditch, there will be long-term consequences for that. as already consequences are starting to show up. >> so the administration is saying that they're going to continue to raise those economic costs over time. and there was a development today. the french who were going to sell two major new state-of-the-art warships to russia, even in the midst of all these military advances, the french say they're going to pull back. and that could be a signal of the further sanctions that are further planned with america's european partners to hit particularly at arm sales and other things that they think might make president putin change his tune going forward. >> jim, what can you tell us about the military operations in ukraine, and what the u.s. involvement will be there? >> well, it's interesting. just today and in the coming days, we heard that the u.s. is going to continue with what is an annual exercise inside
ukrainian territory. it involves a thousand nato troops, ukrainian troops and 200 american troops. that's not many. it's not a live fire exercise. but these are american troops on the ground in ukraine at a time when russian troops are also on the ground in ukraine. and that is seen as a sign of strength. now, just to be clear, russia is watching. today russia announced its own new military exercises nearby. the nato one involving a thousand russian troops, a thousand troops. the russian one is going to involve 4,000 troops. this is the kind of tit for tat that you have in this conflict. so the real question is will there be de-escalation? so far we haven't seen that evidence yet. it's a real crisis. this secretary of defense, this administration facing it on all fronts, in syria, in iraq and ukraine as well. >> jim sciutto in rhode island tonight. jim, thank you very much. joining us now to talk about this is chrystia freedland, a member of the canadian parliament who wrote a book
about russia called "sale of the century." she is banned from russia. and stephen cohen, professor emeritus of russian studies at princeton university. if putin continues to drive his country into a ditch, he said, there will be consequences. long-term consequences, he said. they're starting to show up. is that true? do you believe him? >> he is reading note cards that bear no resemblance to reality. another thing he told your correspondents is that putin is escalating and escalating and escalating. but who is doing the escalating? we're told that tomorrow in wales, we're told this, and presumably it will happen, nato will move its infrastructure to russia's borders. that's an escalation. we're also told according to jim that american troops -- let me finish. let me finish she is letting me finish. >> she is snorting in my ear. the point is to put american troops under any pretext in ukraine is a provocation.
so the escalation is coming from the west. there has been a major development, and one understands the panic in the west. if the ukrainian army is suddenly losing the war in the east. >> you said the provocation is coming from the west. but, of course, ukraine says that tanks and weaponry and soldiers are coming in from russia. chrystia, i want to get you in. how do you see? how do you assess the situation that is happening there? >> exactly as you have said, exactly as secretary of defense said. we have to really be clear about who is escalating. last week was a real turning point in a crucial and dangerous escalation of this crisis with a direct russia invasion of ukraine. it's not just ukrainians who are saying this. it is nato who observed this. and it is the russian soldiers mothers committee which is one of the most respected human rights organization in russia, which observes russian soldiers are being sent home from ukraine in pine coffins. so the escalation is coming from russia.
and, you know, i agree with professor cohen. i am incredibly concerned about this. and i think it is dreadful that we are having to tighten the screws on russia economically. russians are suffering. but as secretary hagel said, with russia escalating, with russia invading a european company, and by the way, russia has the next crimea already. it is now occupied, claimed by russia. we have to respond. the entire security foundation of europe is called into question right now. >> you heard the president. he mentioned a red line. last month president obama's ambassador to the united nations laid out a trigger he calls for further action against putin. let's listen to it. >> any further bilateral into ukraine by russia including one under the guys of providing humanitarian aid would be completely unacceptable and deeply alarming. and it would be viewed as an invasion of ukraine. >> okay. so then the -- here is what the president said today about a red line that we mentioned. he said the russian forces that
have now moved into ukraine are not a humanitarian or peacekeeping mission. they are russian combat forces with russian weapons and russian tanks. either of you surprised by the president's response to putin's aggression? >> i'm not surprised. i'll admit it. he has become a cold war president and i think see coming very close to becoming a hot war president. i said on cnn in march six months ago that we were in a new cold war. that if the political crisis in ukraine became a civil war, which it did become then. >> yes. >> and the civil war became a proxy war between russia and the united states, that we would be on the verge of war with russia. now it's absolutely true that russia is aiding the rebel fighters in the east. it's true. but it's also true that we're aiding kiev. let me just give you one fact, one second, because it hasn't been reported. about a month ago, the deputy secretary of the department of defense, ours, testified to the senate that the american department of defense is embedded. we know this word, embedded in
the ukrainian defense ministry. >> meaning? >> meaning that american advisers are all over the ukrainian war effort, just the way russian advisers are all over the rebel effort. this is a proxy war. and so we now are at a moment approaching a kind of cuban missile crisis situation. the two sides are becoming now not politically, but militarily eyeball to eyeball. and what obama is doing is ratcheting up the odds. his speech in estonia today. first of all, our own department of state, jennifgenera jen psak. i've seen russian invasion. it's paratroopers jumping from the air. it's hundreds of tanks. >> yes. >> okay. not surprisingly, i disagree. i want to start by commending the american president for speaking directly about what is happening. and one thing that is really important is to avoid and cut through the russian propaganda and disinformation. this is a russian invasion of ukraine.
and, you know, the central point i would make in response to what professor cohen has said is you really have to understand that what happened is really clear. the ukrainians had a democracy revolution. the ukrainians chose to sign an a economic treaty with europe. president putin didn't like it and so he invaded ukraine. >> so now what should the obama administration do? >> i think the u.s. president, i think canada, i think the west needs to be doing two things. one, continue to extend the pressure, the economic pressure on russia. david cameron, the prime minister of britain has talked about cutting russian banks off of the swift system. i think that's a very interesting and it could be a very powerful proposal. essential to do that. and second, to help the ukrainians to defend themselves. help them with nonlethal military aid. help them with economic aid. third we have to find an energy solution. and europe is working on that. >> chrystia freeland, professor
cohen, we sense you have more to say, and you'll be back to say it. >> we didn't yell at each other. >> i know. >> i prefer to call it a sigh. he called it a snort. you were sighing. >> i was sighing. it was involuntary. >> and you countered with your own sigh, professor. >> or snort. >> thank you so much for being here. when we come back, why is isis so brutally violent? part of the reason is the propaganda value of that violence. we'll take a look at that next. take a closer look at your fidelity green line and you'll see just how much it has to offer, especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a wide range of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for. tap into the full power of your fidelity green line. call today and we'll make it easy to move that old 401(k) to a fidelity rollover ira.
two americans have been beheaded on video by isis, as you know. amnesty international this week added to the staff of war crime accusations against the terror group, publishing evidence of mass killings and abductions that amnesty says are part of a systematic campaign of, quote, ethnic cleansing in northern iraq. its brutality is so extreme, we think you have to see some of it to believe it. we are going to show some examples, but we warn you it is very disturbing. here is cnn's nic robertson. >> reporter: the more isis
grows, the more it fights like a regular army. light infantry backed up by artillery. tactics that have landed them heavy weapons. but don't be fooled. these fighters are barbaric in a way no fighting force has ever been before. cataloging and posting in near realtime their war crimes. last week, pictures emerged from human rights groups showing more than 100 captured syrian soldiers paraded in their underwear. then images of those same men dead. but isis wanted to make sure the world knew it was responsible, wasting little time posting this video. showing commanders giving the order to fire. then the nauseating hail of bullets, confirmation of how those soldiers were brutally
executed. it's propaganda. like me, you want to turn away. but when we do, we give in. we get terrorized. and their goal is achieved. almost almost a decade ago, al qaeda in iraq, which ultimately morphed into isis was led by this violent jihadist. he sprung to fame beheading american businessman nicholas berg. bin laden's deputy, eyman al zawahiri wrote about the blood thir thirst city tactics. the beheadings stopped. but when james foley murdered in the same way, the same al qaeda core leader has no response, at least not yet. as a result, extreme violence for propaganda seems to have no bounds. isis is wholesale slaughter of both syrian and iraqi army
troops is institutionalized in the organization now. even women, even young children are given severed heads to hold. isis leader baghdadi is marginalizing al qaeda's core, which means when his proteges target the west, it could be even more despicable than the terror we have seen in the past. these are fighters who have so debased and degraded themselves they have lost moral compass. and as any regular military commander will tell you, that puts them almost beyond control and ultimately a danger to their own organization. but unless they implode, despite the veneer of a regular army, they'll likely be more horrors like these. >> that's nic robertson reporting. as nic report, isis has built a military strategy that relies on a detailed cataloging of terror
to instill fear, a strategy that also raises questions about the humanity of those who follow the strategy, and one who tried to follow isis, a north carolina man who was in federal custody tonight. donald re morgan was arrested at a new york airport last month and charged with weapons possession. but u.s. officials say they already had him on their radar due to twitter posts in support of isis. nbc news is reporting that morgan travelled to lebanon earlier this year with the goal of crossing into syria and joining isis. >> my islamic name is nasr abdul raheem. somebody has to defend islam. and somebody has to defend innocent muslims. >> morgan described himself on twitter as a holy warrior, and he also pledged allegiance to isis this past june. >> it's comforting to know that investigators are monitoring all of this and that they flag it when people try to come back or travel. >> we've been hearing over the last couple of weeks, the
internet. social media. and that's where they're recruiting. that. >> is the key. well, are muslims being vocal enough in condemning the isis brutality? and are we covering the condemnations enough? we'll debate all that next. while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can ease arthritis symptoms but if you have arthritis, this can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain, so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammation. plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. and it's not a narcotic. you and your doctor should balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naproxen and meloxicam have the same cardiovascular warning. they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart disease or risk factors such as high blood pressure or when nsaids
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welcome back. we have talked a lot tonight about the brutality of isis and whether muslims have been vocal enough in condemning it. let's find out what our next guests think about all this. dan ferguson is host of the ben ferguson show. lisa bloom is a legal analyst for avo.com. and founder of bloom firm. and marc lamont hill is a cnn political commentator. great to have. >> again, all underachievers. why don't you guys do something with your lives. >> eat up lot of time here. marc, we've been having a debate throughout the show whether or not islam somehow lends itself to more extremism than other religions, and whether or not moderate muslims are doing enough to speak out about it. and when they are, if we're all covering it enough. what do you think? >> that's a great question. first, i think that the general
muslim community, we're talking over a billion people do speak out against acts of terrorism. they do speak out against gross things like beheadings, although i like to think we would assume like the average muslim or christian or anyone else begins from a place of human decency. you shouldn't have to denounce human headings. you should assume as a human you denounce behegsd. i have attended rallies. but the mainstream media doesn't seem to cover this as much as others. and finally, no, islam is not any more violent or prone to more violence than any other religion. we've had crusades. it's simply not true. >> it is absolutely. there is a large section of it that unfortunately is violent. and if you read the koran. >> which section? >> i've read it there is a lot of verses in there absolutely bluntly saying in the current sense that you are to take off the head of those that do not agree with you. and you are to go after those
that do not believe in allah. and there is a lot of people in the world that believe in the extremism of islam. and so to say that it's not -- hold on. can i just dispute that? let me dispute that one point. because i've read the koran thousands of time in arabic. and the word, nowhere does it say behead people for not believing in allah. it does use the -- >> strike the head of the northwestern does not believe in allah is pretty blunt. >> one thing you have to do is distinguish between what we call canonical texts and the other is stra extra canonical texts. to talk about this idea of violence is a particular word that doesn't actually mean violence. it means strive. it's used 41 times in the koran. and it's not used in a military wristic sense. it's about total striving. >> hold on, guys. i want to get lisa in. you were making a point. the old testament can be rife with violent passages too. >> yes. that's right.
we're supposed to stone to death women who have premarital sex according to the old testament. the new testament has similar violent language. >> but lisa, we don't. >> let me make this point. the religions are what we interpret them to be. we can interpret them in a violent way, or we can interpret them in a more modern way. the 1.5 billion muslims in the world, those are the people who are the primary victims of extremist islam. those are the ones who speak out the most. >> lisa, i agree with you. i agree with you. that peek speak out. but here is the issue, though. yes, it says that women should be in the bible. but for the most part, christians don't do that. there are still parts of this world -- hang on, marc, let me finish. >> that's ben. >> sorry, ben. >> where people still do stone women and where women are subservient. >> and some are in christian nations. people who abuse children, take on multiple wives. >> not with islam? >> i beg your pardon. i beg your pardon there are christians right here in the
u.s. who have polygamist marriages. >> exactly. >> but this is the point you're missing there is no other religion, there is no other religion in 2014 that commits the atrocities in the name of allah of their god that islam does. and i'm tired of people -- let me finish, nothing compared to islam, nothing in the world compared to islam. and yet we feel as if somehow we need to apologize. i believe, this is important. i believe that terrorists and a large section in the middle east of muslim individuals who truly believe in sharia law, who truly believe in going after people that disagree with them to the point of killing them. i don't know why other people don't believe them when they say this is what they believe in. they do. >> go ahead. you want to make points? >> look at the 20th century. the problem is extremism. it can be religious, it can be communist, kit be fascist. hitler and stole lynn were not even religious, and they were responsible -- >> but we're talking about
religion, lisa. >> buddhism right now in the world are killing muslims. muslims are being killed by christians. >> where? where? >> it's not any one religion. >> where do you see this type of brutality in the world? where are christians being this brutal in the world? i beg of you to give me an example of a systematic genocide that is happening towards christians in iraq and syria right now? there is not an example. >> it's happened -- okay, well, you can shout me down or let me talk. the systematic genocide that is happening is of muslims by other muslims. that's the worst -- >> that's not christians. >> it's not muslims on christians. >> but it's still violence committed by that group. >> extremism is the problem. >> hold on one second. >> i think that's the point. even if you were to believe that islam somehow promotes violence, which it does not. >> it does. >> just let me finish the point, man. if you look at sunnis versus shiite, there is nothing in the koran that sunni should fight shia, we see it in iraq.
well see it in syria. this is about extremism. this isn't about a doctrine dispute there is nothing koranic or islamic about what isis is doing there is nothing koranic or islamic about syria. we could go on down the list. this is about extremism, not about islam. again, in islam, it's promoting peace. and the notions of violence -- >> it's not promoting peace when they say if you don't convert over, that they are going to kill you. you're rewriting what they actually believe in. >> hold that thought. we'll be right back right after this. hold that thought. hold that thought, we'll be right back.
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all right. back now with everyone. ben ferguson, lisa bloom and also marc lamont hill. you know this conversation came about, guys. very quickly. i was talking to my friend ha d hamudi jaffer in detroit who happens to be muslim. we were having this conversation by text. this is a conversation many people are having around the country. so let's have it. i can give you each a short time to wrap it up. >> your closing arguments in ten seconds. ben, go. >> without interrupting after we make our closing statements. >> i want to quote to clarify
something. the koran, 8:12. terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the koran. end of discussion. you said there weren't scriptures about beheading? there are in the koran. >> to attribute the wrongs of a tiny percentage of the population of 1.5 billion muslims to the entire group is the very essence of racism. >> it's not racism. >> not islam, which is practiced peacefully and lovingly by the vast majority of its adhere rants. >> marc? >> again, reading the koran in context which i've done in arabic and islam, what scholar says as well, the arguments about violence are almost always about in the context of self-defense. >> the word infidel does not refer to defense. >> ben, ben, you got to let somebody else talk. the word infidel is in arabic is about people who conceal the truth. it's not simply about people who don't believe as you do. >> tell that to isis, then.
>> i would tell that to isis, because isis is not an islamic organization. it's a terroristic organization. >> sure they are. >> but ben, ben, you haven't let me make my closing argument. i'm responding to you interrupting me. my point is you say christians don't do this. this are people all over the continent of africa who are gay who are being stoned in the name of jesus. there are people in catholic churches who have been abused in the name of god. i walked past a church in harlem. >> you're talking about the atallah church. >> yes. it says all churches and members that support homos, curse the with cancer, syphilis, stroke, mad liss and then hell. and then they quote the bible. >> and they're called out for the extremists they risks the kkk was a baptist organization. i don't hold that against christians. >> marc, you have that sign up and talk about all those things and it's exactly what you said, but in this country, we allow you to say it. you can go in the middle of times square. >> and you can say it in turkey too, don. which is an islamic democracy. >> you can't say the same thing
about mohammed. >> yes, you can. you can go into turkey -- >> none of those religions are cutting off the kids of innocent children -- [ overlapping dialog ] >> that's the closing argument. >> they absolutely are doing that to people. if you go to turkey, if you go to turkey, which is an islamic democracy, there are passivists. >> marc, we have a kicker that we have to get to. >> i'm sorry. >> we need you to weigh in on this story that is about a guy in california. he changed one letter of his name and job application -- job offers rolled in after he had a dry spell. his real name is jose zamora. he took out the s. he changed it to joe. zamora. so he went from being hispanic to i guess italian. >> and he said the job offers started rolling in the very next week. are you guys surprised? >> not even a little bit. >> lisa, why not? >> listen, i write about this
extensively. my book "suspicion nation" there is study after study there is mountains of evidence about this. there is no question about it. that sarah and sam are going to get the job over african american sounding or hispanic sounding names there is just no question about it. it's all about implicit racial bias. most of us think we don't visit. but all of the research shows that we do. that we prefer people with white anglo saxon sounding names. as sad as that is, that's the reality. >> marc, you said you're not surprised. go ahead, ben. >> i mean, i'm not surprised either. and i think a lot of it depends on which what part of the country you are. >> ten seconds. >> and what the background. it will have a different affect on you depending where you live. and i think that's unfortunate that people do judge resumes based on a name. they shouldn't do it, but they do 679. >> all right, marc, lisa, ben, thanks for the very lively and spirited conversation. >> salaam we'll be right back. ♪ [ male announcer ] over time, you've come to realize...
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and it was just something that you grew up with. >> there he goes. first one to walk underneath. >> i was just trying to fit in to the stereotype american dream, exactly what my parents and everyone expected of me. and i met someone who was awesome. we got along good. we were hiking and biking and doing all kinds of cool stuff. and so we ended up together. and then we had kids. she knew about this like way after we were married. you know, you bring it out just slowly and see what the acceptance level is. and she wasn't totally digging it. so she had no idea what she was getting into. definitely wasn't top on her list of things that she wanted. so it hurt. and she was that good, and i
never saw it. it sucks. i wish i could have done a lot better. >> there is so much more to the story, and you can see it when cnn films presents "lady valor" tomorrow night at nine p.m. eastern right here on cnn. >> i can't wait to watch. >> i met her yesterday in the makeup room just by happen pen assistance. that's going to do it for us tonight. we've given you a whole lot of show. thanks for watching. >> right now, live with cnni. >> all right. thanks so much, don and allison. welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. >> ahead at this hour, the white house takes a tough approach ahead of a critical nato meeting. >> beating ebola. a pair of survivors who came down with the deadly disease spoke out about their disease and what got them through. a pair of brothers wrongly